Preannouncing Seph

I’ve been dropping a few hints and mentions the last few weeks, and I thought it was about time that I took some time to preannounce a new project I’m working on. It’s going to be much easier writing my next few blog posts if people already know about the project, and my reasons for keeping quiet about it have mostly disappeared. It’s also a moot point since I talked about it at the Emerging Languages camp last week, and the video will be up fairly soon. And I already put the slides online for it, so some things you might have already seen.

So without further ado, the big announcement is that I’m working on a new language called Seph. Big whoop.


I already have Ioke and JRuby to care for, so it’s a very valid question to ask why I would want to take on another language project – outside my day job of course. The answer is a bit complicated. I always knew and communicated clearly that Ioke was an experiment in all senses of the word. This means my hope was that some of the quirky features of Ioke would influence other languages. But the other side of it is that if Ioke seems good enough as an idea, there might be value in expanding and refining the concept to make something that can be used in the real world. And that is what Seph is really about. That blog post I wrote a few weeks ago with the Ioke retrospective – that was really a partial design document for Seph.

So the purpose of Seph is to take Ioke into the real world while retaining enough of what made Ioke a very nice language to work with. Of course, being the person I am, I can’t actually avoid doing some new experimentation in Seph, but they will be mostly a bit safer than the ones in Ioke, and some of the craziest Ioke features have been scaled back a bit.

Some features

So what’s the difference? Seph will still be prototype based object oriented, in the same way as Ioke. It will definitely consider the JVM its home. It will be homoiconic, and allow AST manipulation as a first class concept – including working with message chains as a way of replacing blocks. It will still have a numerical tower. It will use almost exactly the same syntax as Ioke. It will still allow you to customize operators and precedence rules.

The big difference. The one that basically makes most all other design changes design themselves is a small but very important difference: objects are immutable. The only way you can create new objects is by creating a new object that specifies the difference. This can be done either by creating a new child of the existing object, or creating a new sibling with the specified attributes changed. In most cases, the difference between the strategies isn’t actually visible, so it might be an implementation strategy.

Now once you have immutable objects but still focus on polymorphic dispatch, that changes quite a lot of things. It changes the core data structures, it changes the way macros work, it changes the flow of data in general. It also changes what kinds of optimizations will be possible.

Another side effect of immutability is that is becomes much more important to have a good module story. Seph will have first class modules that ends up still being simple Seph objects at the same time. It’s really a quite beautiful and simple scheme, and it makes total sense.

If you’re creating a new Object Oriented language, it turns out that proper tail calls is a good idea if you can do it (refer to Steele for more arguments). Seph will include proper TCO for all Seph code and all participating Java code – which means you’ll only really grow the stack when passing Java boundaries. This will currently be done with trampolining, but I deem the cost worth the benefit of a tail recursive programming style.

I mentioned above that objects are immutable. However, local variables will be mutable. It will also be possible to create lexical closures. I’m still undecided whether it’s a good idea to leave a big mutable hole in the tyoe system, or whether I should make it impossible for lexical closures to mutate their captured environment. Time will tell what I decide.

Stealing is good

Seph believes in reusing concepts other people have already made a great job with. As such, many pieces of the language implementation will be stolen from other places.

Just like in Ioke, the core numbers will come from gnu.math. This library has served me well, and I’ll definitely continue to use it. The big difference compared to Ioke is that the gnu.math values will be first class Seph object, and won’t have to be wrapped. Seph will also have real floats instead of bigdecimals. This is a concession to reality (which I don’t much like, btw).

Seph will incorporate Erlang style light weight threads with an implementation based on Kilim (just like Erjang).

As mentioned above, the core data structures will have to change. And the direction of change will be towards Clojure. Specifically, Seph will steal/has stolen Clojures persistent data structures, all the concurrency primitives and the STM. I don’t see any reason to not incorporate fantastic prior art into Seph.

As mentioned above, the module system is also not new – it’s in fact heavily inspired of Newspeak. Having no globals force this kind of thinking, but I can’t say I would have been clever enough to think of it without Gilad’s writings, though.

Basically everything else is copied from or inspired by Ioke.

Isn’t mutability the essence of Ioke?

If you have worked with Ioke, or even heard me talk about it, you might have gotten the impression that mutability is one of the core tenets of Ioke. And your impression would be correct. It wasn’t until I started thinking about what a functional object hybrid version of Ioke would look like, that I realized most of things I like in Ioke could be preserved without mutability. Most of the macros, the core evaluation model and many other pieces will be extremely similar to Ioke. And this is a good thing. I think Ioke has real benefits in terms of both power and readability – something that is not easy to combine. I want Seph to bring the same advantages.

Will you abandon Ioke now?

In one word: no. Ioke is still an experiment and there are still many things that I want to explore with Ioke. Seph will not fill the same niche, it won’t be possible for me to do the same experimentation, and fundamentally they are still quite different languages. In fact, you should expect an Ioke release hopefully within a few weeks.

So will it be useful?

Yes. That’s the whole goal. Seph will have an explicit focus on two areas that Ioke totally ignored. These areas are concurrency and performance. As seen from the features above, Seph will include several powerful concurrency features. And from a performance standpoint, Ioke was a tarpit – even if you wanted to make it run faster, there wasn’t really anything to get a handle on. Seph will be much easier to optimize, it’s got a structure that lends itself better to compilation and I expect it to be possible to get it to real world language performance. My current idea is that I should be able to get it to JRuby performance for roughly the same operations – but that might be a bit optimistic. I think it’s in the right ballpark though. Which means you should be able to use it to implement programs that actually do useful things in the Real World ™.

Is it available?

No. At the current point, Seph is still so young I’m going through lots of rewrites. I would like the core to settle down a little bit before exposing everything. (Don’t worry, everything is done in git, and the history will be available, so anyone who wants to see all my gory mistakes will have no trouble doing that). But in a nutshell, this is why this is a preannouncement. I want to get the implementation to the stage where it has some of the interesting features I’ve been talking about before making it public and releasing a first version.

Don’t worry though, it should be public quite soon. And if I’m right and this is a great language to work in – then how big of a deal is another month of waiting?

I’m very excited about this, and I hope you will be too! This is an adventure.

17 Comments, Comment or Ping

  1. Who’s got two thumbs and is excited? This guy.

    July 28th, 2010

  2. Michał Wierzbicki

    I definitely plan to find some time to play with it once it is public.

    July 28th, 2010

  3. I can’t wait to see it live!

    July 28th, 2010

  4. Sounds cool Ola! Certainly something very cool is coming, good luck!

    July 28th, 2010

  5. hugo

    I think you missed a negation in “my gory mistakes will have trouble doing that”.


    July 28th, 2010

  6. July 28th, 2010

  7. Your language will always be inferior to me.

    July 28th, 2010

  8. Is there a reason for the name?

    July 28th, 2010

  9. Narayan

    Eagerly anticipating and awaiting !!! Good Luck!

    July 29th, 2010

  10. Eric Willigers

    I understood that the ability to modify peers and parents in the parse tree was part of what made Ioke’s macros more powerful than Lisp macros.

    With parse tree immutability, will Seph’s macros still have comparable power to Ioke’s, for example by returning complete new parse trees where peer and parent nodes have been replaced?

    August 2nd, 2010

  11. Rayne

    I absolutely cannot wait for this to come to fruition. I’m a Clojure guy, so I’m really excited about this news. I really enjoyed playing with Ioke, so I’m already imagining the fun I’ll have with this one.

    August 29th, 2010

  12. Can’t believe I missed seeing you in Sydney, near where I live!

    Anyway, I have a question. Do you expect that the syntax of ioke and seth will be similar enough that I could sensibly write a project in ioke, AVOIDING the most extreme forms of late binding and reflection, and then expect to be able to translate it easily into seth later? Judging from the slides of the Ioke-Seth talk it looks to me like the answer is yes.


    November 19th, 2010

  1. overwatering : A Talk on Seph - September 2, 2010

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